Question:
Ethics and the fundamental properties of the universe?
eros_halo
2007-03-29 21:48:51 UTC
Justice deals with what someone says is right and wrong. How do you know whats right or wrong? - weather or not *it* fulfills the purpose it was assigned. How do you know It's purpose? - You have to be the creator. ex. A pencil can have many purposes: writing utencil, wood for fire, weapon, etc. but only the person who created the pencil can know its true purpose... Since we cannot create anything (First law of thermodynamics), only transform and evolve things, we will never know the absolute truth about anything. SO, regarding ethics, we will never know the truth behind right and wrong. All we can do is make the best assumption. How do you do that? You study the behavior of the most fundamental principles of the universe and thus apply it to a maco scale (humans). Sigh... I wish i had more space to explain myself but i cant, if anyone wishes to engage in a serious conversation, my AIM s/n is PlayaSx1. Now for the question, "Do you think I'm right or wrong?" email: eros_halo@yahoo.com
Nine answers:
Black Dog
2007-03-29 22:51:56 UTC
Thanks for the invite to answer another question! Your assertion this time that fundamental principles can be used in application to the problem of right and wrong can be said to be correct in part. There is also the iteration, the test of one solution against challenges that draw the first conclusion into doubt. I guess, in the judicial arena, this would be the appeals process, whether it be something like appealing a death penalty conviction or appealing a decision based on a law that is called into question by new evidence or a philosophical challenge. The physical properties of the universe cannot be said to be enough to draw upon fully, as they do not, as yet, take into account cognition and intelligent response. I don't think that there will always be a "case closed" conclusion to judicial decisions; just look at Roe vs. Wade. The tide of political thought turning toward the religious right calls this decision into many agendas again even long after the decision has been handed down.



In practice, "right" and "wrong" appear to correlate to a societal stability curve; society will allow just so much challenge on just so many levels and then it will react and the standards will change. There are many fundamental standards, most prominently the Ten Commandments. Although they are worded for the ancients, they address those behaviors that must not be allowed for the good of the group. Killing is not only wrong, but it is disruptive. But take that idea into war. Martin Sheen's character Willard in "Apocalypse Now" said it best: "Charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500." It is still wrong and disruptive, but the environment has changed to make it necessary-i.e., it is a war zone. So right and wrong can be defined under controlled circumstances, but in the enforcement of these laws must be tempered by many factors (in a courtroom setting they might call these "mitigating circumstances." ) Some of these circumstances are enough to forgive the wrong; some are insufficient. But the system is so complex that they are almost never exactly the same (but they often follow patterns that can become blinding to those too accustomed to dealing with them over and over). Thus the occasional case of overreaction--police brutality where the offense does not match the treatment meted out, deadly force used against a man who holds a fake gun, etc. etc.,; judgement by humans and on humans is vastly imperfect. The creator of a law might not be able to see the effects that law might have 200 years down the road. Take the continual back-and-forth arguments over the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the US. Part of its original purpose was to enable citizens to protect themselves from the government, not just from random threats. The right to bear arms shall not be "infringed." It has been constantly infringed since it was written, mainly in response to abuses of the right. However, this has the effect of defining as "wrong" those people who feel the need to carry guns to protect themselves in New York City, when such a practice is illegal there. Thus, a right is made into a wrong by legislated reaction to abuses. The 4th Amendment protecting against "unreasonable search and seizure" can be abrogated by the government by the Patriot Act in reaction to another abuse--terrorism. Thus rights become wrong and the tide turns to the ones in power decreeing what is right and what is wrong. So, we come full circle and I find myself agreeing with your assumption that universal principles could be used to explain this, as it comes down to exercise of power in the end; however, other trends exist, and I seem to have gotten off on a tangent.



I am not arguing for moral relativism as a "right" thing; however, I am pointing out that this relativism DOES exist and is driven by forces other than philosophical or ethical ideals. Thus, in practical everyday application of morality to life, we must take into account the ones who do not see "right" and "wrong" as we do, or who see it but choose to ignore it in order to exercise force to gain an end.



OK, that's a lot of long-winded answers on my part! I am waaay past my bedtime! It's been fun!



P.P.S. I read your addendum, eros_halo, and I wonder how you can end it with a blanket assumption that the Bible is the inspired word of God without citing some sort of test to determine this. If this is so, then would not the other holy books of other religions also be inspired by an entity or spirit outside the universe as you say? And if we can never know of things outside the Universe (i.e. Creation, as you say), then what information do you have that makes you believe that the Bible originated there and not in the minds of men? It is folly to seek the Mind of God at the expense of understanding the Mind of Men, since we live among Men and must interact with them (unless you want to be a hermit). Ethics can only be taken as far as it applies to men. In the early 20th century, a mystic named Aleister Crowley wrote a work called "The Book of the Law," that he claimed was the channeled word of the spirit Aiwass. There have been many other so-called "inspired works." What makes the Bible true and these others false? What criteria do you use for judgement?
2007-03-29 22:22:01 UTC
Do not overestimate truth. You do not need truth to make good decisions. Truth is merely a convenience. In fact, truth is often little more than food for our ego.



In reality, the question is beauty. Human beings will see no point in survival without the experience of beauty. Truth, of course, has its own form of beauty. But ethics need not be relevant to this. We cannot survive in an ugly world, where there is no ethics, no concept of what a person should or should not do. whether or not it is 'true' that human beings are nothing more than highly complex machines and theoretically deterministic, we will not abide being treated as such.



So the question of what is ethical need not address what is true. It is simply an understanding and appreciation that we have, like an appreciation for music. Some argue that it is in fact universal (kant), but its importance is not dependant upon this. We all know what we feel is right or wrong. And if we want to respect ourselves, we make our decisions accordingly.



So here is the essence: You will never, in fact know the truth. It is an unreachable ideal. But you can be as sure of ethics as you are of your identity. So do what is right, and dont worry about what physics thinks.
2007-03-29 22:41:06 UTC
(this is eros_halo) What I meant was that When something abides by its purpose, it is doing the "right" thing. When it does not abide by its purpose its doing the "wrong" thing.

Now here is the thing, If you believe in the Big Bang theory, you cannot believe in Free Will, or souls nonetheless. This is because of Newtons law that states "For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction" and "Every action has its consequence" (<== that is derived from the previous law). Thus, for every action of every thing that encompasses the universe, there is already a pre-determined path, or consequence, that it is going to follow. Every thought process or action you take is a result of the the actions of the molecules that evolved from the big bang, not of free will. It's a fact that science can only explain Evolution, and not creation (first law of thermodynamics), therefore, any philosophy that we make-up, is limited to our limited knowledge, therefore it is impossible to know about life after death, (if any at all) or anything ethical. We will be making stabs at it at best. So, my understand is that if this is true, then I'm not going to waste my time trying to "figure out" the true ethics of the universe since it will be impossible. And im certaintly not going to take anyone elses view since their idea can be just as right/wrong as mine. Instead, Id rather have faith, since thats all we really have, and have faith in a religion. Now you can argue that religion was made by man, but let me ask you this.



When you are writing a term paper, and you mispell a word; is it the pen's fault, or your own? - Your's of course.



Now God needed to get the truth out, since we would never know (because of our limitations of obtaining knowledge) so he divenely intervened and used humans as tools to get the truth out in paper in the physical universe. So the Bible is therefore written by God, and humans were just the medium.



So that is my resolution for now, If you believe something else, you better explain yourself, trust me, I will read every word of it. Good luck!
G's Random Thoughts
2007-03-29 22:00:52 UTC
Sounds like you are having so deep thoughts late this night.



Kinda in the same groove. I believe that in looking for our purpose and creator we can look at the order of the universe and refine our views of our creator and purpose.



How wonderful and orderly everything is. How many patterns are similar from the smallest of systems to the largest. How everything interacts and supports everything else. The idea of dualism and that things don't exist or cant be experienced w/o an opposite.



It is a "wow"
2007-03-29 22:12:49 UTC
Are you making a case for moral relativism here? Hmm. I don't know that I accept the premise that "what's determined to be right or wrong is based on the purpose it is assigned." I wish you would explain your thoughts on that more. I also don't know that I agree with the implication that in order to be ethical, we first need to know the absolute truth. To my mind, ethics have much more to do with living in accordance with our beliefs (although that assumes that people HAVE actual beliefs, which goes back to the whole moral relativism thing, oy--my head hurts already).
2007-03-29 22:24:12 UTC
understanding right and wrong has nothing to do with fundamental structures of the univers and everything to do with the human brain.

Before humans there was no right and wrong (on earth). Now there is. It's like love, hate, anger, etc... all just human brain



The universe could not care less if all life everywhere were wiped out.
syrious
2007-03-29 22:22:53 UTC
You are not talking about truth. You are talking about physical processes; physical processes occur as a result of other physical processes, not being influenced by right or wrong and not being relevant to right or wrong. Right and wrong is a human concept of which physical processes have no care. Care is born of the emotions of man and some animals.
amecake83
2007-03-29 22:22:50 UTC
though we have not created the materials we have created the meaning within a "pencil"....it sounds to me an atheistic approach to figuring out this universe.... people have known right from wrong because of our faith that we had in the earliest and harshest of times.....the very fact that you worry about right and wrong tells me you have some sort of faithful aspect within your being,,,why do right and wrong even matter to you right now?...why not go about your life and scientifically expalin everything? arent you happy?
The Knowledge Server
2007-03-29 21:57:04 UTC
1. Universe is indiscernible if no difference is between universe and nothingness.



2. Universe is discernible only through the differences between universe and nothingness.



3. Universe is discernible only as "part, whole, equivalence, uniqueness, limit, link, influence, sensation, origin, derivative, rule, condition, intent, and fulfillment" through the differences between universe and nothingness. (Tabulate the differences between universe & nothingness, if you do not have!)


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