Question:
Why are determinists so convinced they're correct that there is no free will?
Tom
2016-11-24 05:15:07 UTC
Personally, I'm still undecided on the free will/determinism debate.
Speaking as a biologist, the feeling of volition, as well as qualia and consciousness make no sense from an evolutionary perspective if there is no free will.
As if we're just 'causal machines' with no outside influence, the above traits of experience just aren't required in a materialistic universe, as we'd function exactly the same without them, they're simply wasted energy, and since the so called 'illusion' of free will is so great, it must use up a lot of energy. Anyone who knows anything about evolution would know that development of useless traits, and very energetically expensive ones at that, makes 0 sense.
But then on the other hand you have the seemingly unmoveable laws of physics which suggest every action must have antecedent causes.
So these two pillars of information both seem indisputable, yet not at all compatible.
Is it just that determinists don't tend to know much about biology, natural selection and evolution, so assert determinism to be fact without taking into account the biological contradictions?
And it's hypothesised by many that the physics of a biological system are not the same as the physics of say a table or a weather system. So this clearly leaves room for a type of emergent free will.
From what I can gather it seems that determinists just look at the physics side of things, and not the biological side of things?
Would be eager to here any differing opinions on the matter!
Thirteen answers:
Groove doctor
2016-11-25 08:00:55 UTC
Both concepts of 'free' and 'will' are self-refuting.



First, given that there are no other mechanisms beside cause and effect (quantum randomness is irrelevant here), how can anyone be free from prior causes?



Second, the will is based on the perception as an "I" in our head that feels like it thinks thoughts. The evidence for this is poor and so shouldn't be accepted. Through meditation or psychedelic drugs, this illusory feeling can be completely dissolved. Thus, the so-called 'mystical experience' that is God/nirvana/Tao/Brahman.



And so there is no free and there is no will. Ironically, when this is realised in experience it is far more liberating than clinging to the concept of a free will.
Plogsties
2016-11-25 10:27:23 UTC
To be a determinist and to remain logically consistent there CAN BE NO FREE WILL for, if there is, determinism fails for fate MUST determine ALL. It is not that they are convinced - it is that the lack of free will MUST be accepted as part of "the faith" of the determinist. I'm quite sure that NO ONE truly believes this nonsense that the universe is (totally) deterministic - but playing the word game is, I suppose, fun for these folks.
anonymous
2016-11-25 08:27:52 UTC
I haven't decided either. I say there's a will, but it's absolutely not free. It's highly, highly constrained. Possibly immutable. I don't know. I don't believe in qualia (the concept isn't even coherent) and I think 'philosophical zombies' aren't biologically possible. "Consciousness" however you define that, is a biological function that evolved. It's "doing something" without which humans couldn't operate as they presently do. Physics as far as science can tell is fundamental to biology. Whatever's going on macroscopically, atomically, it's physics.
Freethinking Liberal
2016-11-24 10:11:24 UTC
Determinism and free will are not mutually exclusive concepts, they are more levels of explanation.



We are biological machines; we are governed by the chemical, biological and physical laws of the universe. Just like a computer, some of our behaviour is like pressing the key 'h' and 'h' appearing on the screen.



Our brain is like a computer, in that it stores and runs programmes. However, our computer is self programming (for the most), it is called learning. It starts its learning process at about 6 weeks before we are born.



Back to the computer analogy. Simple programmes are completely determined by the algorithm. However, the more complex the programme, the more it produces random or nondetermined results.



The human programmes running in our brain are almost infinity more complex... that complexity IS our free will.
Happy Hiram
2016-11-24 08:21:32 UTC
Why am I convinced? Because I have no choice? Why are you so sure free will is correct? Because you can't understand why humans would do something stupid (like watch TV all day) that has no evolutionary advantage.



Let me suggest that when you think you know the "fitness" of an action for a complex species you are working from a primitive concept of evolution. Humans save all manner of recessive useless traits because of their POTENTIAL as fitness traits. So why is IDENTITY such a regressive trait? Why is seeing a mirror and recognizing yourself (and thinking you are a self) so contrary to survival? You tell me, it is your proposition.
Big Bill
2016-11-24 09:05:25 UTC
J Krishnamurti pointed out that each person is the product of his or her socialization and the indoctrination they received from their parents, relatives, community leaders, teachers, religious instructors and government, etc.



That influence negates the idea of individuals possessing any "free will" and clearly shows that we act as we have been taught to act with the strongest sense of such direction having come from the indoctrinator who most strongly influenced us.



The question may then become one of why did that person or those persons appeal as strongly as they did to our individual psyche and ego so that we accepted the position they put forth to such a degree?



In some instances, it may be that the weak crave strength even if they do so as members of the herd.



In other cases, the strong seek to demonstrate that strength and feel it is their right to rule over those they see as being weak.



Of course, there are varying degrees of this within each person and yet they would still be responding to their original indoctrination and to that which they might later find in life that echoed the same according to their own ego, that is itself a form of response to their own indoctrination.



Wasn't it Shakespeare who said that there is nothing original under the sun? We stand on the shoulders of those who have come before us.
RWPossum
2016-11-24 14:15:21 UTC
Pardon me if this sounds cynical, but i think a lot of us are "convinced" about things because we can't stand the idea of being wrong. The same goes for free will proponents.



"the cash value of the idea"

- William James



I see no advantage in telling people they're puppets. Psychotherapy shows that people can learn to overcome conditioned responses.
?
2016-11-24 22:59:27 UTC
Think about it. Things happen. Thoughts occur. Synapses fired in a certain order. Everything happens and can not UNhappen. Thoughts appear and cannot be unthought. The wheels of fate are turning and we are powerless to stop it. Unless our brain thinks of a way, but ONLY if our brain thinks of a way. If it doesn't, we don't.
?
2016-11-24 16:30:28 UTC
Philosophically speaking, they are adamant. Such people can never be corrected.



They (determinists) have bull-dog determination.
?
2016-11-25 17:31:10 UTC
Because they are simple and would like be absolved of any and all responsibility for THEIR choices.



I love the phrase; 'We have to believe in free will, we have no choice".
tizzoseddy
2016-11-27 07:16:12 UTC
I guess it just depends on what appeals, or makes the most sense to them. Maybe it helps them feel intellectually superior because it's a counterintuitive concept that kind of blows people's minds. Maybe it relieves them of any feeling of responsibility for their own actions. Maybe thinking of fate as being inevitable and unalterable relieves them of any anxiety over what the future will bring. Maybe what they've heard in dispute of the concept was unpersuasive, poorly presented, or just didn't make sense to them. Maybe what they've heard in support of the concept was persuasive and difficult to argue against.



I've been involved in this debate on this site for awhile. (see my answers, if you are interested.) At times, I see it as a rather fine line; it's difficult to nail down the mind body-connection, but free will has always made the most sense to me.



Some say that there is no such thing as freedom because we can't break the laws of physics. That's ridiculous. Freedom is nothing more than the ability to choose one of at least two options. Even a prisoner in maximum security solitary confinement is free to twiddle their thumbs, clap their hands, or perform a number of other activities. How much sense does it make for the freest person in the freest society on Earth to say, "I'm not free because I can't lift a bus over my head with one arm and throw it to the moon."?



Some say that there is no freedom because, everything that has led up to any given moment in time determines what will happen in the next, and everything that exists and happens at any given moment is determined by laws of physics that are so precise and invariable that only one outcome for every detail of the entire universe is possible. My objection to that is, our understanding of physics is incomplete. I don't think we can reliably assume that there is only one possible future. Some people mention "quantum randomness". I don't pretend to understand that, but how do we know whether or not quantum randomness, or some other aspect of physics, allows for some variability in possible outcomes? How do we know whether or not some aspect of physics, that is not well understood, is the key to, our mind-body connection, our consciousness, and our ability to tip the scales of fate in one direction or another? Also, I think it's arguable that the mind, though it is generated through physical processes, is itself not a physically existing phenomenon. How much does an idea weigh? What is it's volume? What is it's temperature? Physical assessments can't measure something that doesn't exist physically, so why would physical laws constrain it? It's indisputably correct that everything leading up to any given moment determines what will happen next; I see no reason why choices can't be among the determining factors.



Some people say that we don't have a will: that we just feel like we do. We don't make decisions: we just feel like we do. We don't have minds: we just feel like we do. That's more nonsense, if you ask me. It's difficult for me to put it into words. What we are is what we are, and what we do is what we do. Calling it the exercising of one's will, or calling it the playing out of chemical interactions doesn't change what's going on. They're only different names and theories for what's going on, whatever it actually is. There is no difference between desiring something, and just thinking that we desire something. There's no difference between thinking one has made a choice, and having actually made a choice. If options were considered, and one was chosen, then a choice has been made, by some means, and by some entity. Any envisioned option has a chance of being chosen. Saying that a chosen option was inevitable is easy because it's after the fact; it's already been chosen, and it can't be unchosen. That's like calling someone lucky after they win a game of chance. The outcome is not a result of their luck; their luck is a result of the outcome. A choice is not made because it's inevitable; it's inevitable because it was made.



Some say that brain scans show that our decisions are made before we know it, therefore our actions determine (what we mistakenly believe are) our choices rather than our choices determining our actions. I think those brain scans are, just as likely, a consequence of subconscious activity. Some people seem to think of their subconscious minds as something other than themselves. That's an understandable feeling, but in fact, we are our whole minds: an inextricably intertwined combination of our conscious, and subconscious, selves: not two distinct separate minds: not a self and a non-self.



Regarding your comments regarding biology, I don't find the wasted energy angle particularly compelling. It seems to me that you're making assumptions for which there is no basis, namely that generating consciousness would cost extra energy. I personally think of it as more like a side-effect, kind of like a free bonus, or maybe an unavoidable glitch, integral to, and/or resulting from, the complexity of our decision-making processes and abilities.



It comes down to this: if a mind can conceive of options, and if it can desire and choose an option, then free will has been demonstrated. Mindless things can't, conceive of, desire, or choose, options. So to me, to argue against the existence of free will is to argue against the existence of the mind.
JORGE N
2016-11-24 11:33:09 UTC
If I am determined enough I will find the way to free my will so that it can concentrate more energy on the object I am determined to subject by my will.
Shrubs
2016-11-27 19:50:54 UTC
Because it is easy to blame the external. It is far more difficult to reflect upon the internal. They have an external locus of control.


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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